Crankcase Ventilation

[Nattylightmike]

Formerly I was Mike B. I learned alot from this site and enjoyed my boat all summer, I even towed a Bayliner in on my maiden voyage. I know there have been alot of threads on this in the past but I just wanted a few opinions. Freshened up the 440, got some aluminum heads, K-60 from Engle, roller rockers, prosystems carb, and a bunch of other stuff. Before I ran a PCV but now I need to decide between Pan Evac or Puke Tank. I will be running water throught the headers so is Pan Evac out? Don't really want to drill holes in the new headers but if that's what it comes down to then I will. This is a lake boat, I don't want oil leaking everywhere. What do you guys think.

[Norcal_73]

I would love to find out a little on this too. I have a prob with my oil pan dipstick popping out at WOT. just running breathers. No place to plug into my tunnel ram.

[RiverRacer]

Water or not I'd use the Vac-U-Pan, can't beat it for a simple deal that works!.. I'd get rid of that water crap myself!..

[waimo]

could you tell us a bit more about the vac-u-pan Art.

[RiverRacer]

It is a very simple deal and you can make them up yourself and save money, just get some Mopar breathers(they have the best oil separators)and some old chevy smog valves, weld some pipe nipples to the collectors for the smog valves and run hoses to the breathers done deal!..

[Carnivalride]

I'd get rid of that water crap myself!..


Ditto if you have much cam overlap and run anymore than a light mist water can really hose things up. I warped all 8 manley exhaust valves in a set of heads when I switched cams for the first time 14 years ago. And I have been running dry headers every since.


JMO

[RiverRacer]

Ditto if you have much cam overlap and run anymore than a light mist water can really hose things up. I warped all 8 manley exhaust valves in a set of heads when I switched cams for the first time 14 years ago. And I have been running dry headers every since.


JMO

Yep, and since water is not considered a muffling device anymore, there's no reason to ever run water!..

[gfinishline]

I still like going UP to the flame arrestor, or puke tank. The outlets in the rocker covers MUST be mounted at or near the top (or top/front) of the covers! I like routing the vent lines UP and that way the air pressure is vented and the fluids stay down in the motor. You may want to speak with the header builders, I remember a problem with "vac u pan" systems when using ANY type of mufflers in the headers. Water or not!

[jaminj946]

I was just thinking, since I have alot of oil mist flying around in my valve covers despite restricting oil to the top in my mopar, I was thinking about a vacuum pump like a moroso or equivalent. ( blower and injected so dont want to dump it there....and zoomies) ) When Art said get some old GM smog valves I stated wondering if a guy couldnt use an old smog PUMP to evac a crankcase? ( cheaper than a moroso) no idea how much vacuum is reguired but anything is better than pressue buildup. Suck it out at the valve covers and pump it through a puke tank. What do you guys think?

[warpt71]

It works for sure, you would be amased at how much oil they actually suck at high RPM's though!

[Nattylightmike]

I have the Banderlog valve so the water doesn't kick in until 1500. If I don't run water won't the headers blue? I don't think overlap with my cam is much of an issue. I guess a vacuum pump would be ideal but is it worth the $? No votes to just run a puke tank?
K-60HYD .534"
.534" 288°
288° .356"
.356" 238°
238° 112°

[RiverRacer]

I was just thinking, since I have alot of oil mist flying around in my valve covers despite restricting oil to the top in my mopar, I was thinking about a vacuum pump like a moroso or equivalent. ( blower and injected so dont want to dump it there....and zoomies) ) When Art said get some old GM smog valves I stated wondering if a guy couldnt use an old smog PUMP to evac a crankcase? ( cheaper than a moroso) no idea how much vacuum is reguired but anything is better than pressue buildup. Suck it out at the valve covers and pump it through a puke tank. What do you guys think?

The whole vacuum pump deal started using the old GM smog pumps, but soon found out they can't take the rpm's, that's when the aftermarket redesigned it for heavy duty use=$$$$$$$$$$$$.... I've seen quite a few using a vac-u-pan deal with zoomies that worked decent, the main thing is to put the breathers at the front of the covers!.. Personally, with a blown motor I would just use a plain ole puke tank!...

[gfinishline]

Yes, I feel a puke tank above the rocker covers will do the job! With a blown and injected motor, YES USE A PUKE TANK, mounted in front of the blower and above the rocker covers. If your motor does NOT turn more than 7000 RPMs, back away from the vacuum pumps! Don't waste your money! Let the crankcase BREATH, but don't throw money where it does no good! If you don't have BAFFLES in you rocker cover breathers, you will have a problem. If your dipstick is "blown out" durring high speed runs, you need better breathing for your crankcase area. PS, a vacuum pump won't do any good if you don't have good a hand fitted windage tray in the oil pan!!!

[SonnyGlide]

I run a Moroso Evac system on my 406 sbc, breathers at the front, I had to run a Valve cover spacer plate w/the tall covers to clear the Crane Stud Girdle (.630 lift) was told by Crane the Baffel wasnt necessary with their 2" wide girdle, I dont really have anymore room for a baffel, I'll look for oil in the collectors, havent scene any yet. just my 02

[Norcal_73]

I am going to give the Evac Set-up a try. Went and talked to an old drag racing legend today John "freighttrain" Peters. He recomended it. I was trying to go into boats mainly with him, but he kept going back in time with drag cars and all the ol time greats he knew.


norcal73

[RiverRacer]

I run a Moroso Evac system on my 406 sbc, breathers at the front, I had to run a Valve cover spacer plate w/the tall covers to clear the Crane Stud Girdle (.630 lift) was told by Crane the Baffel wasnt necessary with their 2" wide girdle, I dont really have anymore room for a baffel, I'll look for oil in the collectors, havent scene any yet. just my 02

As long as you use the Mopar breathers you won't have a problem, they have the best oil separators, that's why Moroso use them!..

[RiverRacer]

I am going to give the Evac Set-up a try. Went and talked to an old drag racing legend today John "freighttrain" Peters. He recomended it. I was trying to go into boats mainly with him, but he kept going back in time with drag cars and all the ol time greats he knew.


norcal73

A long time ago a friend of mine put a set on his dually, no leaks and he got 3 miles more to the gallon, how bout that!...

[warpt71]

Im sold on that point right there!!! Right now I just try not to drive if I dont have to

[Norcal_73]

Dam. Three more mpg. Thats great.

[Norcal_73]

I sure hope they dont make up new smog laws and add boats in the mix.

[SonnyGlide]

not only will the evac help rid the crank case of fumes, it promotes better ring sealing....
the down ward piston(s) thrust= crank case pressure, < thats how 2 strokes work, they use the pressure under the piston to force A/F N2 the Transfer ports & N2 the fresh Cyl. and circulate the fuel-oil mixture to lube & cool the Crank.

the rings will seal better if only the compression gases are allowed to get behind the ring and seal it to the cylinder wall, and the engine isnt trying to work against the crank case pressure, the eng. works/spins better in a Vacumm= better efficiency of ur BTU's
better economy;)

[hm66Howard]

I sure hope they dont make up new smog laws and add boats in the mix.Don't even say that! You never know who might be listening. :D:D

[RiverRacer]

I sure hope they dont make up new smog laws and add boats in the mix.

They already have but thank god it don't apply to our type of boats!..

[gfinishline]

Thanks for the refresher lesson on 2 strokes. But I still stick with my original statements about "hoses up to the flame arrestor". I don't want "vacuum" in the rocker cover areas, I want a "mild low pressure area", VENTING the vapors and pressures. Often, "exhaust powered vacuum breathers" can act like a "shop vac" and suck OIL out of the motor. Also, wet sump motors can actually be DRAINED of motor oil when the "vacuum pump system" is incorrectly installed and the motor is run for more than 30 seconds at WOT. Going "dry sump" on a true race motor relieves these problems, conversely running "too much 'breathing' vacuum in the wrong places" will cause more problems. If you put a large amount of vacuum ABOVE the oil sump level, you will prevent the oil from returning (falling) back to the oil pan sump. "Rotating a mass in a vacuum" is NASA, "rotating a mass in oil rain" is what we are up against. Controling oil return, windage, blow by, and shear, tend to lessen the need for "exotic crankcase vent systems". Large enough hoses from the valley and or rocker covers UP TO THE flame arrestor or intake (NEVER PCV VALVES!!!) will VENT the pressures and control the excess oil liquids. Your intake/ flame arrestor actually have a "mild low pressure area" when the motor is running, this will "draw in the vapors", and not vacuum any oil out of the motor. PS, they put holes in the ring lands to control the pressures that do get behind the rings! Too much pressure behind the rings is not good. Each of you will do what you want, but "the trick way" is not the only way.

[Norcal_73]

I see. I just chatted with a track official here at the Lakeport Speedway. He told me many racers here run the valve cover breather to exhaust set-up.

norcal73

[SonnyGlide]

so their not the only ones that went the "TRICK WAY":p

it works, I use'em, nuff said:cool:

Mr. "G"
the holes to control pressure...R U refering to GAS PORTING? If so, their there to promote faster/better ring sealing during compression/combustion/exhaust vs. the ring gap enrty path, and have nothing to do w/ controlling pressure, thats done buy Cam selection & piston dome & chamber CC's

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawr, but I learned a few thing as a tech at BRC Pistons,
Live Oak Fla, Jay Voss< owner.. call'em tell'em Sonny sent ya, He'll set U stright on Gas porting

Have a Fast Day

[RiverRacer]

I see. I just chatted with a track official here at the Lakeport Speedway. He told me many racers here run the valve cover breather to exhaust set-up.

norcal73

We ran the Vac-u-Pan deal on the altered way back in the early 80's, along with just about everyone else!..

[shooter2]

so their not the only ones that went the "TRICK WAY":p

it works, I use'em, nuff said:cool:

Mr. "G"
the holes to control pressure...R U refering to GAS PORTING? If so, their there to promote faster/better ring sealing during compression/combustion/exhaust vs. the ring gap enrty path, and have nothing to do w/ controlling pressure, thats done buy Cam selection & piston dome & chamber CC's

I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawr, but I learned a few thing as a tech at BRC Pistons,
Live Oak Fla, Jay Voss< owner.. call'em tell'em Sonny sent ya, He'll set U stright on Gas porting

Have a Fast Day

You work at Brc? You guys were the company that I used to buy my pistons from for my motor. They were custom made because of the bore and the rod length. 6.385 rod and 4.5 bore. I have some private questions for you about them, if you could send me your e-mail I would appreciate it.

Thanks Brian

[gfinishline]

Don't you mean "gas ports" in the ring lands help promote MORE EVEN SEALING/ EVEN RING PRESSURES TO CYLINDER WALLS? (all the way around the ring) I should have said "Too much UNEVEN pressure behind the rings". (in my last post) And now THANKS for the 4 stroke lesson too. I must also say, "because everybody does it that way" seems to be "an easy exit". Back in the 1970's and 80's EVERYBODY ran those "envelope style" air scoops. (boats) You know, the thin aluminum ones, mostly on dual top tunnel rams. "EVERYBODY" never actually got any readings or actually looked at the air flow thru those scoops. MOST of the good running motors with 750 or larger carbs ( 4 X 2) on them, were actually creating VACUUM above the booster venturis. The carbs were breathing better than the scoops! BUT EVERYBODY RAN THEM! PS, I did sleep at a Holliday INN last night and I spent 3 1/2 years of my 5 1/2 years with Delco Moraine Engineering, in the engine test cell lab, building and testing engine bearings and oiling systems. The rest of the time I spent with Delco Moraine brakes and suspension, and Eagle Engineering (Buick Performance), and a few months at "C4" (the California smog calibration shop) Just so you know that all this isn't going over my head. Thanks for your insites to these questions, it's good to know that some people here want to "get more technical" when it counts.

[SonnyGlide]

Ur welcome,
most of my time was spent< 20 yrs w/the Generial Dynamic corp. building the M1A1/M60-A1,2,3/M-88.for the US Army/Marines.
design, build 2 home built's< they take yrs. never again.
screw-Balling around on Harleys and HD Drag Bikes:D
I run a Harwood scoop, w/dual Velocity stacks, on my 633hp sbc 406 w/2 450's on a Tunnel> never liked the hi-$$$ little scoop.
please feel free 2go to photos, SonnyGlides Yellow Sanger, and tell me everything thats wrong<my lack of knowledge/trick way< copy-cat, my lack of imagination, thats why I'm here, to learn, not get N2 lill dust-ups:cool:
Gas port vs. gas porting, spliting hairs:confused:

Have a Fast Day:D

[David 519]

.....If your motor does NOT turn more than 7000 RPMs, back away from the vacuum pumps! Don't waste your money! Let the crankcase BREATH, but don't throw money where it does no good! If you don't have BAFFLES in you rocker cover breathers, you will have a problem. If your dipstick is "blown out" durring high speed runs, you need better breathing for your crankcase area. PS, a vacuum pump won't do any good if you don't have good a hand fitted windage tray in the oil pan!!!

Some recent data....We just got off the dyno with 2 different BBC's. Both were dynoed with and without vacuum pumps. My buddies made almost 30 HP more with 10" hg from his vacuum pump. Mine made a only about 17 HP more since the pump could only pull about 5" hg (I have a bit more ring end gap for NOS use). Both were wet sump engines, both had very basic windage trays, neither had baffles in the valve covers and neither ran much above 7k RPM.
Our ski boat uses a hose to the breather, it works fine and was a cheap way for the mfg to deal with crankcase venting. Vacuum pumps cost more money and require a bit more maintenance. However, in both our engines, and every high performance engine our dyno guy has ever built, a vacuum pump made more power. Is it worth the cost?? That's up to the individual. Certainly the "trick way" isn't the only way, but it sure is trick :)
If you are having problems with your dipstick, weld a tiny tab on the dipstick and the dipstick tube. Put a small spring or safety wire and you'll never have a problem again....

[gfinishline]

It works for you. This all started because I read that " most racers use rocker cover to header" for venting their crankcase pressures. I called BS and then all this "crap" started. I feel that "guys who do what everybody else does" do it for that reason. (because they don't know better) SOME will test for themselves and others will just "go with the racers way". I remember back in the late 70's or 80's, my customer Larry Torres was running a super stock Nova wagon. He told me that he ran only 5 quarts of oil in his 7 quart system. This allowed him to use his/the "new idea" a vacuum pump, and reduce the crankcase windage. He said he moved the vacuum intake 3 times because after a wheelstand he had oil in the pump. He got the intake in the front of the pan, just below the tray. He did get it to work correctly, and stuck with it. HE made it work for him! I still disagree with the blanket statement "vac u pan" is the way to go. For some it is, for MANY/MOST OTHERS it is not a good system. I have seen, water in the oil, blown seals, and worst of all bent rods. Sure, there are many ways to do everything! each of you needs to find out what works for your "deal", and not rely on "racer hearsay". I now will not "raise the stakes" with MR HOUSE BUILDER because all of you guys don't need to hear us brag about what we have done. Find out what YOU need for your motor, not what "everybody else does"!!!

[RiverRacer]

I remember Lary Torres, he used to run with us at OC a lot back then!..

[SonnyGlide]

"raise the Stakes with MR. HOUSE BUILDER!"< DUDE! Home Builts R Expermintal Aircraft!
Gssss, I thought U knew everything! now I gotta spell it out 4ya!
I'm done w/this guy, Ur too costic!

[Norcal_73]

No arguements to the ones who have tested this. Thanks for the info.

[David 519]

I'm an old dude and have raced all my life... Pan Evacs (valve cover to headers) were commonplace in the 80's and 90's. I ran them back when I was boat racing in that time frame. Also ran them when I first switched over to cars in 94. Like anything else, they worked well when installed properly. I don't doubt the issues you've seen, but I think you'll agree, some folks can break a rock. Bent rods from a pan evac?? Not saying it didn't happen, just it takes a special sort do screw up that bad!!
Vacuum pumps are an improvement over pan evacs and installed properly will make more power, consistantly, over pan evacs. I installed my first vacuum pump around 2000. I wrote an article that ran in several racing mags detailing the installation/testing and results from it. It was good for about 4 hundredths in a high 9 second car.
Recently we switched back to boats. The engine we built for our boat is what I discussed in my previous post. Walk through the sportsman pits at any NHRA event, most Super Gas and faster cars will have a vacuum pump...And most had pan evacs before that.
Certainly, there's a lot of ways to accomplish the same objective; venting the crankcase. If you can benifit from the extra HP and the $$ isn't a big deal, vacuum pumps are a better way to go.. If $$ is tight, or the added HP isn't a big incentive, run a hose to the air cleaner and call it a day...
Just one dude's opinion from years of racing....

[warpt71]

I had discused this befor because I was forcing oil out of my breathers that were on the rocker covers. What I ended up concluding was that the breathers were mounted too low on the covers and not tall enough. I had somthing like1 1/2" tall, oval "Offy" breathers mounted on the flat of a set of "M/T's"

http://www.performanceboats.com/html/youBoat/data/500/medium/100_1102_0006.jpg
I now have 5" tall, angle cut breathers that don't leak a drop!!! I think that the height made the biggest difference, the top of the breather is now above the rocker cover.

http://www.performanceboats.com/html/youBoat/data/500/medium/100_20471.JPG
Just something to consider

[RiverRacer]

That is the worst place to put breathers, I did the same once and even with foam in the breathers it will puke, have to get it away from any splash against the roof of the cover!. The best place is right at the front of the cover at the top!..

http://www.performanceboats.com/html/youBoat/data/500/medium/100_1102_0006.jpg

[SonnyGlide]

beautiful scoop, remember Tony Nancy ran one on His T/F back in the day,
good look'n bullet bro.

[warpt71]

That is the worst place to put breathers, I did the same once and even with foam in the breathers it will puke, have to get it away from any splash against the roof of the cover!. The best place is right at the front of the cover at the top!..

http://www.performanceboats.com/html/youBoat/data/500/medium/100_1102_0006.jpg

I didn't put the breathers there Art, but they are in a bad spot, I know that now lol
Like I said, the taller ones help 100%

beautiful scoop, remember Tony Nancy ran one on His T/F back in the day,
good look'n bullet bro.

Thanks for the complement, I searched very hard for that scoop and my dad and I painted it :D :D

[RiverRacer]

I didn't put the breathers there Art, but they are in a bad spot, I know that now lol
Like I said, the taller ones help 100%

I believe it, I see shit loads of those with the breathers there, it's because of the flat spot there people automatically think that's where they go, but it's supposed to be for a name, every time I go to a swap meet I see at least one or two sets like that!.LOL..

[warpt71]

Yep!! I keep my eye open for another set for my Dad 'cause he is jealous :D:D:D They always have too many of the round holes punched out too.

[Nattylightmike]

Well, I got the engine back together. I also got the crank case evacuation figured out and went with some breathers that have a built in check ball so you don't need the valve by the headers. They are a little $ but look pretty clean. Here is the link https://www.shogunindustries.com/cgi-bin/ws400CS.cgi?cart_id=1080805122631120&page=products.htm&view_item=E42798

[ck_73]

Yep!! I keep my eye open for another set for my Dad 'cause he is jealous :D:D:D They always have too many of the round holes punched out too.

Yeah, I've got a couple sets. Too bad they're all for SBC.:(

[RiverRacer]

Clean setup!..:cool:

http://www.v-driveboat.com/vweb/attachment.php?attachmentid=819&d=1217961097

[Terrible toy]

Put a good 4 stage dry sump on that puppy, solve a whole bunch of problems.:cool:

[RiverRacer]

That it does, it's only money!.LOL..:D

[shooter2]

[QUOTE=Terrible toy;9329]Put a good 4 stage dry sump on that puppy, solve a whole bunch of problems.:cool:[/QUOT

And while he is at that might as well put injection on it

Brian

[RiverRacer]

[QUOTE=Terrible toy;9329]Put a good 4 stage dry sump on that puppy, solve a whole bunch of problems.:cool:[/QUOT

And while he is at that might as well put injection on it

Brian

But of course!..:D