Switch to alcohol [Archive]

hydroguy

03-14-2008, 06:43 AM

The more I think about it the more I keep leaning to alcohol. For a while there I decided I didn't want the cleanup afterwards and those Kinslers are so darn expensive! The most compelling reason to switch is because it is so much easier on the engine than race gas. I know I will use twice as much but it's not like I am taking a cross country trip. Convince me to change. :p

FC-Pilot

03-14-2008, 07:18 PM

It is great! There, what more do you need? One nice thing is that the tuning window is nice and wide. For basic playing you don't need to be changing pills all the time. In our funnycar we don't change pills much at all being that we are NA. And with some of the additives you don't see the issues that you use to see. I still would establish a routine of cleaning out the system just to be on the safe side. For a play boat I would try to find a way of keeping the oil temp up to help boil out the alky. We pull the valve covers when the engine is nice and warm and that helps the evaporated alky and condensation to escape. A good vac-u-pan setup helps with that quite a bit.

Paul

RiverRacer

03-15-2008, 05:13 AM

Want to make power go with alky, and anymore with top lube you don't have to worry about clean up just treat it like it was gas, tune up wise it's no different than gas, air fuel ratio is air fuel ratio and when it's right that's when you make the power, anything else it just runs and waste fuel and contaminates the oil!.That's the nice thing about gas, you don't have to fill the oil pan with alky to figure you're running fat, LOL.. But if you learn to read the plugs you won't have that problem!..The only drawback is if it's a lake boat you can't just buy it at the docks you have to haul it in a drum, of course if you're running race gas guess it's no difference so you may as well run alky!...

hydroguy

03-15-2008, 05:16 AM

Art,

Are you going to repost your circle boat project and the v-drive rebuild?

Larry

RiverRacer

03-15-2008, 05:29 AM

Wow, that would take some time I'd have to start from scratch on the v-drive, don't think I have the pics anymore I'll have to look and see!... I might do the GN later just have so much crap to do I ain't had time to work on it!..

FC-Pilot

03-15-2008, 08:37 AM

Art, if you lost the pictures I can bring a v-drive over for you to rebuild. That way you can document it and get pictures for us.:p

Paul

RiverRacer

03-15-2008, 02:05 PM

Art, if you lost the pictures I can bring a v-drive over for you to rebuild. That way you can document it and get pictures for us.:p

Paul

Thanks for the offer Paul, I'll take a look over the weekend maybe I did save them, we'll see!..;)

Moneypit

03-16-2008, 01:04 AM

I've got a T/R with an Enderle hat set up for Alky.......Not cheap, but reasonable........Ray

hydroguy

03-16-2008, 01:30 AM

RiverRacer

03-16-2008, 05:38 AM

I've got a T/R with an Enderle hat set up for Alky.......Not cheap, but reasonable........Ray

What's with the change, I thought that was going on the new PS motor????..

Moneypit

03-16-2008, 04:41 PM

What's with the change, I thought that was going on the new PS motor????..

It was, and still might. But, there are a couple of Crowers out there and it would be a lot easier and less expensive, (notice I didn't say cheap), to keep the set ups the same for both engines. Also, what Bob said about all the tuning issues related to the change and the somewhat equal results have me thinking. The Crowers will flow more than enough air to supply the AFRs.......Ray

RiverRacer

03-16-2008, 04:58 PM

It was, and still might. But, there are a couple of Crowers out there and it would be a lot easier and less expensive, (notice I didn't say cheap), to keep the set ups the same for both engines. Also, what Bob said about all the tuning issues related to the change and the somewhat equal results have me thinking. The Crowers will flow more than enough air to supply the AFRs.......Ray

Well, if you're going to stick with gas then you will have the expense to change over(nozzles-pills, spool)tuning is no different than the stacks once setup, and both flow more air than what the motor needs so there won't any power gains between the two, so it's just a matter of preference!.. That reminds me I need to get mine put together!..

Fiat48

03-17-2008, 03:56 AM

I also had Kinsler bore the Crowers to 3 inches when I ran the 541 in UGF. No difference in performance on the clocks. But stupid racers try anything and everything. LOL.

Fiat48

03-17-2008, 04:27 AM

Thanks Ray,

I had considered that avenue but would really like to go blown when I have to freshen up my motor. That being said I'm not 100% decided on blown, I am mulling over the cost and the necessary changes. I think I can get by with just a cam change but am not entirely sure. Why don't you send me the particulars via e-mail.

Ok. Here's the sales pitch:

Alcohol = more forgiving on the tune up, with Pro Blend alky lube can be almost treated like gas and left in the system ( I have pushed leaving it in 8 months now without a problem), likes compression but doesn't have to have it as some believe, likes wide lobe spacing on the camshaft but again....doesn't have to have it. It's not picky. What it doesn't burn it spits out the pipes or dilutes your oil some while it hauls ass. Of course it hauls more ass when it is right.
Little harder to start when real cold (lotta guys squit injector with gas), motor runs much cooler.
Alcohol DOES tend to tuilp (stretch) exhaust valves if run a lot real real fat.....very high pyromter readings. I have seen 2500 degrees on a pyro (early years long ago messing with the stuff).
Carbureators can be modified to run it IN THE RIGHT HANDS. There is such a guy here in Reno, Nevada. The set he did for me were within 1 jet number of perfect pyro readings right off the bat. No hesitiations or problems.....Hell I turned the idle screws in 1/4 turn as was done. The results of going from gas to alcohol and no other changes was harder acceleration and 2 mph in a Flatbottom Cole. This was not optimizing compression or camshaft as we could have. This was a fuel change only with the same carbs modified for alcohol.
Just remember you have to have enough fuel supply (twice as much). There are mechanical pumps available also.

Blower:
Adjustable power when you want it by changing a pulley. Makes up for weak cylinder heads (and it seems everyone has better heads than you got...wherever one goes). Hot day? High altitude? Bored? Change the pulley and it's a whole new ride. And combined with alcohol....the tune up being forgiving....seldom need to change a main jet for mild pulley changes.

There ya go.

hydroguy

03-17-2008, 05:25 AM

RiverRacer

03-17-2008, 05:35 AM

I also had Kinsler bore the Crowers to 3 inches when I ran the 541 in UGF. No difference in performance on the clocks. But stupid racers try anything and everything. LOL.

That's funny, it reminds me of back in the car days and a 468 was a big motor, one of our Quick32 buddies with a digger was determined to be "king of the hill", so he decided to get his injectors(Hilborn 3")"Extrude-Honed" we all laughed and told him to save his money and told him to just put a bigger cam in it, the injectors were way more than the motor needed, but he wouldn't listen and went and dumped a bunch of $$$$$$$$$$ on the Extrude Hone, well guess what, car ran the exact same numbers as before not one bit difference, man was he pissed, but he sure had a pretty set of injectors!..LOL..

RiverRacer

03-17-2008, 05:46 AM

Well, Alcohol is sounding better and better. I'm running 12 1/4 to 1 on compression now and I'm wondering if it may be a little on the high side for blown. this is keeping me from making the final decision If I have to change out the pistons then I probably won't go blown.

If you really are at 12 1/4 there's no problem at all, don't know what you have now but I would use studs, as far as head gaskets goes I'm still partial to copper and O-ring they work, but I haven't tried some of the new stuff so I can't comment on that!..

Fiat48

03-17-2008, 06:19 AM

Well, Alcohol is sounding better and better. I'm running 12 1/4 to 1 on compression now and I'm wondering if it may be a little on the high side for blown. this is keeping me from making the final decision If I have to change out the pistons then I probably won't go blown.

I run 12.5. I do feel 12.5 is pushing it though. You'd be fine or you could simply do coppers and run a .062 head gasket. It's not picky.
If you are really going to get after it....I'd do a 180 gram taper wall pin. If you have trw/speedpro pistons and are running the pins that came with them...they gotta go.
Timing 34 degrees and lock it there. Don't mess with it. (blown).

Fiat48

03-17-2008, 06:21 AM

If you really are at 12 1/4 there's no problem at all, don't know what you have now but I would use studs, as far as head gaskets goes I'm still partial to copper and O-ring they work, but I haven't tried some of the new stuff so I can't comment on that!..

Still copper here. Go with the devil you know. You do gotta silicone around all the water tho.

hydroguy

03-17-2008, 06:49 AM

I'm running forged JE's with Dbl SPIRO locks. I guess thats not too much compression. I better start looking for a good blower cam.

RiverRacer

03-17-2008, 04:13 PM

I run 12.5. I do feel 12.5 is pushing it though. You'd be fine or you could simply do coppers and run a .062 head gasket. It's not picky.
If you are really going to get after it....I'd do a 180 gram taper wall pin. If you have trw/speedpro pistons and are running the pins that came with them...they gotta go.
Timing 34 degrees and lock it there. Don't mess with it. (blown).

You run 34??, I was going to say 32 figured that would be on the safe side!..:D

RiverRacer

03-17-2008, 04:15 PM

I'm running forged JE's with Dbl SPIRO locks. I guess thats not too much compression. I better start looking for a good blower cam.

What pins you using??, I have yet to hear anything good about JE pins!..

hydroguy

03-17-2008, 09:32 PM

Fiat48

03-17-2008, 09:39 PM

You run 34??, I was going to say 32 figured that would be on the safe side!..:D

Laying back to 32 increases the exhaust temp a lot. Slow burn fuel. 34 is better. I leave all of them 34. I will do 36 if I have to ...but the fuel curve better be on or you can get the rings lands.
But they sure like 36. LOL.

Pins I run are C&A 180 gram taper walls. Being the cheap SOB that I am...I tried to get by with TRW pins once since I was running the motor so mild. It went 2 runs and Bango....lost the whole works due to a pin.
Since then I pay the price and run the taper walls. Actually I think for mild blown alcohol they are overkill.
Morgs motor is running 150 gram JE straight walls. They are nicely finish honed inside and not rough bored as a lot of TRW pins are. He's gonna run em. He blows up.....we will know about JE pins. LOL.

Fiat48

03-17-2008, 09:47 PM

Pins must be good, I'm still alive. I'll be sure to check them out at 'freshen up time'. Here is my plan of attack.......

put motor on stand
disassemble
send out crank for another keyway and repolish
new rod and main bearings
check bore and new cross hatch
check heads and springs
stud block for heads
new cam
reassemble
kiss all exposed parts of motor exclaiming how wonderful it is
get on with life :D

You need .003 rod clearance.
You need .0035 main bearing clearance. Most important.
Camshaft wise...let me know what you have.
And let me know what you do with this boat...what performance you are looking for.

hydroguy

03-17-2008, 10:20 PM

Those are the clearances I was going to aim for
Cam is Ultradyne 332 duration and .781 lift roller

Boat is 1/4 miler. I'm probably going to have to add outboard steering to go any faster, TE now

Fiat48

03-18-2008, 02:26 AM

I need all cam specs. Particularly opening points at .050.
Really should have outboard steering.
9's or 8's can be done very low blower %'s.

hydroguy

03-18-2008, 02:54 AM

I'm looking at some barely readable stuff here......duration @.50 282 intake and 292 exhaust. lobe center 106 intake and 110 exhaust. This is going to be the best I can do without jerking off the front of the motor and slapping a degree wheel on the cam. :(

Fiat48

03-18-2008, 04:17 AM

That camshaft will work good enough for what you want to do. May need to degree it in a little different but it will work.

hydroguy

03-18-2008, 05:06 AM

Dang, things are starting to come together pretty well. If I was building from the ground up the cam and pistons would be changed but limited funds are the byword at the moment. Now, about that rudder..............

RiverRacer

03-18-2008, 05:44 AM

Laying back to 32 increases the exhaust temp a lot. Slow burn fuel. 34 is better. I leave all of them 34. I will do 36 if I have to ...but the fuel curve better be on or you can get the rings lands.
But they sure like 36. LOL.

Pins I run are C&A 180 gram taper walls. Being the cheap SOB that I am...I tried to get by with TRW pins once since I was running the motor so mild. It went 2 runs and Bango....lost the whole works due to a pin.
Since then I pay the price and run the taper walls. Actually I think for mild blown alcohol they are overkill.
Morgs motor is running 150 gram JE straight walls. They are nicely finish honed inside and not rough bored as a lot of TRW pins are. He's gonna run em. He blows up.....we will know about JE pins. LOL.

Yeah 34 is cooler and 36 is kicks ass if you're on the tune up, lol, but I was thinking 32 may be better for endurance, like 1/2mi straightaways????..

Damn you're as bad as I am, I didn't listen and did the same thing, TRW pins are the worst crap that was ever made with that sharp step at the rod and that's where they break and it don't take much!.. Since that experience I went to B&B pins never had a problem after that, if I'm not mistaken C&A pins are the same I think??..

RiverRacer

03-18-2008, 05:56 AM

Pins must be good, I'm still alive. I'll be sure to check them out at 'freshen up time'. Here is my plan of attack.......

put motor on stand
disassemble
send out crank for another keyway and repolish
new rod and main bearings
check bore and new cross hatch
check heads and springs
stud block for heads
new cam
reassemble
kiss all exposed parts of motor exclaiming how wonderful it is
get on with life :D

Ok I may have missed it but I didn't see any mention of what kind of block you have?? If it's a plain ole GM block you are using studs on the mains right??, might want to consider a girdle also!. Be a good idea to change rod bolts while you're at it!...

hydroguy

03-18-2008, 06:46 AM

It's never ending! Yep, it's a chevy block and girdle is good and new rod bolts are a good idea also. :o

RiverRacer

03-19-2008, 03:34 AM

Yeah, it always seems like it's never ending and the $$$$ just keeps climbing, but in the long run it all becomes worth it!.