New ideas...

[lebel409]

I just started thinking, there hasn't been a new hull in about 20 years...last being the Bezer I think. Lots of splashes, Coles, Beiesmeyers, Raysons, Hondos.

My boat doesn't have a floor (no plywood or balsa between glass), just solid 'glass. Heavy for sure.

Later boats had the sandwich. Some newer ones have been made with carbon graphite...lighter and stiffer.

I was reading about the Aussies BAD boats...no stringers, but a "chassis" (we'd call it an internal frame).

What would anyone here propose to advance V drives and flatbottom type boats?

[Wannabe]

I desperately want to build a tube chassis Biesemeyer. My brother won't let me.
There are lots of advancements in v's and larger boats. Tunnel hulls, hydros, etc. But when you have rules to run within like the APBA flatbottom classes, there just is not much room for improvement. And part of the problem is supply and demand. With the supply of decent old boats, who really wants to spend 10 grand on a new hull then 20 grand on new rigging, etc before a powerplant? And as long as there are old boats to fix, there won't be enough desire for a new boat. And if you can't sell at least ten, then it was a waste of making a "grade A" plug and mold.

[lebel409]

I spent 8 grand fixing the gel...a new hull for 10 would have ben a deal.

The tube frame idea really piqued my interest. I could see an integral frame/engine mount/gas tank. It would put the CG lower and in the middle instead of the outsides...

You know the plywood that Beisemeyers use the stiffen the sides? Why not make the inner gunwales go to the floor, then fill with structural foam...stiffness AND floatation.

Semi Vs...alot of ride advantages over true flats. Runner bottoms and Hydros go fast straight... How to make the Flats turn better?

Resin infusion?

Money...If I was in it for the money, it wouldn't be boats...:D

[V-Drive Video]

IMO, you first need to figure out how to better the performance of the old hulls. Once you've climbed that mountain, use of modern technology should be the easy part.

With such low demand nobody wants to waste time and money on R & D.

[gfinishline]

I made some stuff for Jamie Brendell back in 1984, while he was building the "Coor's Lite" XH1 alcohol hydro. The first "tube chassis boat" I ever saw. It was LIGHT and STIFF, and less filling too (HA HA) It was the FIRST (unofficial) 200MPH alcohol hydro. Unfortunately it was going backwards thru the lights on it's last pass. RIP Cecil Florence. With all the labor put into that kind of boat, who could afford to "loose one" at the races? When we did a regular/race V-drive install, we put it together and took it apart three times. #1; rough fit and balance. #2 fit and finish. #3 LOC-TITE LAP, and start up! A chassis has to be a bunch more work. But if you have the money, "I got a TIG"!

[RiverRacer]

I remember that deal pretty nasty, always wondered why it did that!..

[gfinishline]

I think, big air trap, more prop than rudder surface area. JMO.

[gfinishline]

I'm watchin' PINKS! It's a great show.

[gfinishline]

I still have a few (3) tunnel hull designs and (3) V bottoms to build (one GN). All I need is YOUR MONEY! If you REALLY want NEW STUFF!

[RiverRacer]

I'm watchin' PINKS! It's a great show.

Never heard of it??, I know PINK'S hod dogs though!..:D

[RiverRacer]

I think, big air trap, more prop than rudder surface area. JMO.

Hmmmm, could very well be???..:confused:

[lebel409]

I'm not disagreeing about the cost effectiveness...and I sure am not the deep pockets type.

One idea I had for a shallow V like my Lebel is to lay the bottom, add stringers, then add foam (whatever material won't soak water up like balsa) to flatten the floor. That would have to be stiffer and lighter.

What about strategically bracing the deck? Seems that lots of problems happen when the deck is too light...CF is one component, but maybe some engineering in addition to CF might make a big strength/weight difference.

[FC-Pilot]

On one of the decks we laid up we used carbon and honeycomb to give the deck strength while keeping it light. You could have a dance party on that deck and it would not feel it.

Paul

[lebel409]

:D

What about the gunwales also?

What you guys have done is really neat. You had the experience and the opportunity to make something extraordinary.

Part of what got me thinking...

How is a tube/metal frame tied to the glass anyway? Multiple through bolts? Molded plates?

[shooter2]

Art: Do you have any pics of Tom Conants boat, ps 230. I only saw that boat one season and was too stupid and busy to really look at it. Thought some guys may like to see that boat and its rigging.

Brian

[RiverRacer]

Art: Do you have any pics of Tom Conants boat, ps 230. I only saw that boat one season and was too stupid and busy to really look at it. Thought some guys may like to see that boat and its rigging.

Brian

I think I have some not sure I'll have to look, but I'm sure Jerry has some though, he has pics of every circle boat ever made, he eats and sleeps this stuff!..LOL..:D

[gfinishline]

I have a design for a 24' tunnel with V-drive. It is NOT what you have seen elsewhere, and is very "user friendly". My 22 V-bottom GN design, will run like a "dry flat" on the straights and turns. It just takes $$$$$$$$$ and time.

[shooter2]

I have a design for a 24' tunnel with V-drive. It is NOT what you have seen elsewhere, and is very "user friendly". My 22 V-bottom GN design, will run like a "dry flat" on the straights and turns. It just takes $$$$$$$$$ and time.

And when you got the time you don't have the money, and when you got the money you don't have the time.

Brian

[RiverRacer]

And when you got the time you don't have the money, and when you got the money you don't have the time.

Brian

Ain't that the truth, I need to win the Powerball!..:D

[gfinishline]

Art, since we are talking "New ideas" here. Over the years I've seen guys buy a $1500 boat and then dump $25K to make it "just like all the others around here". But very few will spend that same amount of money on a "new idea". That's why today we have 25 and 30 year old boats that "rule" the interrest of boaters. Those old boats go faster because the motors and props are better, not because the boat's design is better. First post I made here was, "lower the shaft angle". What else can you offer (as a major speed gain) to a guy who has an older hull? "How many ways can you spice up the same old meatloaf?"

[shooter2]

Art, since we are talking "New ideas" here. Over the years I've seen guys buy a $1500 boat and then dump $25K to make it "just like all the others around here". But very few will spend that same amount of money on a "new idea". That's why today we have 25 and 30 year old boats that "rule" the interrest of boaters. Those old boats go faster because the motors and props are better, not because the boat's design is better. First post I made here was, "lower the shaft angle". What else can you offer (as a major speed gain) to a guy who has an older hull? "How many ways can you spice up the same old meatloaf?"

Guess it depends on how much ketchup is available.

Brian

[RiverRacer]

Art, since we are talking "New ideas" here. Over the years I've seen guys buy a $1500 boat and then dump $25K to make it "just like all the others around here". But very few will spend that same amount of money on a "new idea". That's why today we have 25 and 30 year old boats that "rule" the interrest of boaters. Those old boats go faster because the motors and props are better, not because the boat's design is better. First post I made here was, "lower the shaft angle". What else can you offer (as a major speed gain) to a guy who has an older hull? "How many ways can you spice up the same old meatloaf?"

You can't, all you can do is try to make it safe!..

[gfinishline]

After thinking about this.... Many guys are "nickle dime" when dealing with BOAT SHOPS. When those same guys go to Summit or Jeg's, they go nutz! They will spend THOUSANDS on Dart heads and roller cams, when what they really need is a boat that WORKS with the power. I don't care how much power you make, what will the boat run???? If you can't get the monster power to the water, you didn't WORK WITH THE CORRECT BOAT SHOP! If you ask questions of Hi-Tech, Cline, or Cucci,..... for god's sake BUY SOMETHING!!!! The motor is the easy part! A good boat takes BOAT MAGIC!!!! That's what you are really paying for!!!

[gfinishline]

Rev Wright will now step down!

[RiverRacer]

It's the same in anything, no matter how much power if you can't apply it to the ground/water it don't mean $hit!..

[Terrible toy]

On one of the decks we laid up we used carbon and honeycomb to give the deck strength while keeping it light. You could have a dance party on that deck and it would not feel it.

Paul

Paul, did you guys bag the carbon lay ups? We experimented a little with hand laying up the stuff and gave up on it. And, we couldn't afford to buy pre pregs, ovens, and a bagging system to do it right.

With apologies to the good Rev Wright, I would like add my two cents about "new technologies". Dale and I, when we started designing our MPH hydro, had a blank sheet of paper. So, we looked at all kinds of ideas and current (back then) state of the art composite structures. Yet, we were operating in somewhat of an information vacuum because none of the companies building hydros were going to share secrets with us. We certainly looked at other boats and had the Kurtis hydros that I had been running for a baseline. In the end, and with the assistance of one of the Navy's best composite engineers, and with the costs in mind, we stuck to pretty conventional lay up schedules, stringers and rigging. We did design a unique sponson pad and wind shield. Also our boats dimensions, tail width, length were somewhat different then others.

The thing in this thread that got my attention was the tube chassis idea. We actually thought a lot about that. As was mentioned here stiffness was the objective. We didn't consider a metal structure, thought it would be too heavy and hard to integrate with the glass boat. What we came up with was a hollow composite stringer and rib design glassed into the sides and floor. As part of our research we had a buddy video tape my hydro and others from various angles racing. The thing that killed the stiff idea was the view from dead behind a hydro when they launch. We found that the engine rotates to the left way more then we thought, and in turn twists the hull behind the sponsons with it. What we decided was that without that twist the boat would plant the right sponson too hard. That was one new technology that got shot down by us.

The real problem in trying new ideas is cost. When you're trying to sell these things there is a price envelope that you have to be in or nobody, or very few, will buy them. That was the deciding factor on our wanting to use new and innovative ideas.

[pwderman]

On one of the decks we laid up we used carbon and honeycomb to give the deck strength while keeping it light. You could have a dance party on that deck and it would not feel it.

Paul

Paul do they refer to the honeycomb as core mat also? I was curious because a friend of mine does a lot of one off stuff with fiberglass and carbon fiber (he designed and built the 7/8 55 chevys a few years ago) and he was showing me what he called core mat and how it strengthened the panels without adding a lot of weight. Jon

[pwderman]

"Paul, did you guys bag the carbon lay ups? We experimented a little with hand laying up the stuff and gave up on it. And, we couldn't afford to buy pre pregs, ovens, and a bagging system to do it right."

Bill the guy I refered to in my other post does a lot of carbon work and he does it all by hand. I'm not real familiar with the different types of carbon but he's always poo pooing what he calls decorative carbon fiber maybe the type makes a difference?? He does do both though.

[Terrible toy]

"Paul, did you guys bag the carbon lay ups? We experimented a little with hand laying up the stuff and gave up on it. And, we couldn't afford to buy pre pregs, ovens, and a bagging system to do it right."

Bill the guy I refered to in my other post does a lot of carbon work and he does it all by hand. I'm not real familiar with the different types of carbon but he's always poo pooing what he calls decorative carbon fiber maybe the type makes a difference?? He does do both though.

I remember seeing some boats about the time we were doing ours that the builders labeled "carbon fiber" hulls. and all they had were some thin sheets over the core material in the floor, Since they were not using epoxy for the rest of the boat it was probably just black cloth. The 5 oz. carbon fiber we played with was hard to cut and, the biggest problem, was you couldn't see if it was wet out. Also carbon fiber is tough but when it fails, it fails catastrophically. Good ol fiberglass can crack and still function. We tried some combinations of glass and carbon fiber layers but thought there wasn't much to gain with that. If we had been able to stay in business we were going to try and build a lighter boat with s glass, vinylester and some creative lay ups. But, never happened.

[ls6vdrive]

My deck on my Mandella is strong enough to park my harley on pretty sure, but I bet the extra weight of that strength is the factor.

I contemplated selling her but knowing the boat will take 1 foot chop all day prevents me, I cant wait to see how it rides.

[pwderman]

I remember seeing some boats about the time we were doing ours that the builders labeled "carbon fiber" hulls. and all they had were some thin sheets over the core material in the floor, Since they were not using epoxy for the rest of the boat it was probably just black cloth. The 5 oz. carbon fiber we played with was hard to cut and, the biggest problem, was you couldn't see if it was wet out. Also carbon fiber is tough but when it fails, it fails catastrophically. Good ol fiberglass can crack and still function. We tried some combinations of glass and carbon fiber layers but thought there wasn't much to gain with that. If we had been able to stay in business we were going to try and build a lighter boat with s glass, vinylester and some creative lay ups. But, never happened.

In the other post I mentioned the strength the core mat gave the panel (it was a door for a Pro Mod car) it was pretty amazing the difference it made. I've got to drop by and see Hal I'll have to ask him about the different carbon materials.

Now if I can only get him to help me out on my bubble deck..:rolleyes: to bad he hates boats...:(

[Roaddogg 4040]

I have a design for a 24' tunnel with V-drive. It is NOT what you have seen elsewhere, and is very "user friendly". My 22 V-bottom GN design, will run like a "dry flat" on the straights and turns. It just takes $$$$$$$$$ and time.

Do you have any pictures or drawings of your GN design that you would share with us? I would love to see something like this.

Steve

[Terrible toy]

In the other post I mentioned the strength the core mat gave the panel (it was a door for a Pro Mod car) it was pretty amazing the difference it made. I've got to drop by and see Hal I'll have to ask him about the different carbon materials.

Now if I can only get him to help me out on my bubble deck..:rolleyes: to bad he hates boats...:(

What? you're still working on the Sanger... thought you'd have it in the water by now. I know you'll have it done in a week or so, bring it over to Walker Lake on the 4th and let's see how it looks.:D:D

[pwderman]

What? you're still working on the Sanger... thought you'd have it in the water by now. I know you'll have it done in a week or so, bring it over to Walker Lake on the 4th and let's see how it looks.:D:D

Yea the 4th that sounds about right..:rolleyes: what year though? How about I tow it over and you can practice on it..:D

[FC-Pilot]

Core-mat is different than honeycomb. There are a number of types of honeycomb (plastic, aluminum, cellulose and what ever else can be imagined). We used Nida-core in the bottom of one of the boats (which is a plastic honeycomb with an absorbent material attached to it) and we used a cellulose for the deck being that is should not be too affected by water. We found that a good vinyl-ester resin keeps the carbon from having too much of a brittle nature. In our testing we found that the carbon epoxies had great strength, but did not hold together well in a fracture. Most of the carbon we have also has Kevlar tracers in it so in case of a major fracture they will help to hold the structure of the boat together in stead of splintering.

Paul

[Wannabe]

To add to the carbon thing- a plain weave; which is one up and one down standard weave. It looks cool and you get to say "Woo- Carbon!!" and that is the end of it. It is no stronger than the same piece as glass. When you get into the structural carbon, then you see improvements. We have lay-ups of 1/10th of an inch thick that were fractured in testing, and show terrible visible breakage but will NOT continue or complete the fracture. Just too strong. I will give you 40 hits with a sledgehamer of your choice. If you can get the sledge to poke through or the piece to break in half, I will give you a $20 bill.
Lots of things to use between layers of carbon. Balsa, foam, honeycomb, coremat, nidacore, etc. Just gotta design the carbon for what you want the piece to do.
Now to my idea for a new boat. I thought about two rudders that tie into the stringer area. That way the prop wash gets off of the rudder and creates alot less drag in the straights. The extra surface may help the thing turn at any amount of speed. The place where it would fall short is turning at very small MPH as the prop wash hitting the rudder helps to spin around a circle boat. Don't really know how it would work, but the thought intrigues me.

[RiverRacer]

Yea the 4th that sounds about right..:rolleyes: what year though?

Slacker, ya got two weeks what more do ya need, LOL...:D:D

[pwderman]

Slacker, ya got two weeks what more do ya need, LOL...:D:D

OH say about a month or two...:D man I'm trying to get out of Dodge hear and I need to bail on some of the other projects any body need a '66 Elky???

[RiverRacer]

OH say about a month or two...:D man I'm trying to get out of Dodge hear and I need to bail on some of the other projects any body need a '66 Elky???

A 66 Elky huh, well just shut the FK up, I don't need another project, capiche!..:mad::D:D

[pwderman]

A 66 Elky huh, well just shut the FK up, I don't need another project, capiche!..:mad::D:D

KILLER deal Art...:D:

[RiverRacer]

KILLER deal Art...:D:

FK you prick!..:D:D

[pwderman]

FK you prick!..:D:D

Got pics..:) :)

[RiverRacer]

Got pics..:) :)

You're really pushing it ya know!..:mad::D

[shooter2]

To add to the carbon thing- a plain weave; which is one up and one down standard weave. It looks cool and you get to say "Woo- Carbon!!" and that is the end of it. It is no stronger than the same piece as glass. When you get into the structural carbon, then you see improvements. We have lay-ups of 1/10th of an inch thick that were fractured in testing, and show terrible visible breakage but will NOT continue or complete the fracture. Just too strong. I will give you 40 hits with a sledgehamer of your choice. If you can get the sledge to poke through or the piece to break in half, I will give you a $20 bill.
Lots of things to use between layers of carbon. Balsa, foam, honeycomb, coremat, nidacore, etc. Just gotta design the carbon for what you want the piece to do.
Now to my idea for a new boat. I thought about two rudders that tie into the stringer area. That way the prop wash gets off of the rudder and creates alot less drag in the straights. The extra surface may help the thing turn at any amount of speed. The place where it would fall short is turning at very small MPH as the prop wash hitting the rudder helps to spin around a circle boat. Don't really know how it would work, but the thought intrigues me.

Just a thought but the k238 fission boat is all carbon. It had interesting stringers in it. Aluminum laminated to them on both sides. This boat was built by Ron Jones jr. Maybe some others here know more about it. How much more does it cost to build a carbon boat as to a convetional boat.

Brian

[RiverRacer]

Just a thought but the k238 fission boat is all carbon. It had interesting stringers in it. Aluminum laminated to them on both sides. This boat was built by Ron Jones jr. Maybe some others here know more about it. How much more does it cost to build a carbon boat as to a convetional boat.

Brian

Brian, boxed stringers ties it all together and adds strenght but still allows the boat to flex as Bill mentioned about his hydro!. You can double the cost for carbon fibre!..

[shooter2]

I drilled a hole through the stringer of that boat and saved the core sample, I will have to dig it out. But is it worth the extra cost and what is the life of it. I have heard hydroplane guys saying that the new boats dont last as long as a glass boat. This is what I hear, is it fact or fiction.

[RiverRacer]

I drilled a hole through the stringer of that boat and saved the core sample, I will have to dig it out. But is it worth the extra cost and what is the life of it. I have heard hydroplane guys saying that the new boats dont last as long as a glass boat. This is what I hear, is it fact or fiction.

Was the stringer rotted???.. If so nothing helps that but replacement!... Don't know how long carbon lasts, but it may have to do with how it's stored when not in use???...

[shooter2]

When I drilled a hole in that stringer it was with a hole saw and the boat hadnt even seen the water yet. Was it any better, thats debatable, it was a good boat, but 100g good. Not sure about that. But at least they stepped up to the plate and tried something different. I understand the boat is just sitting in Bobs shop now. Not many k boats out east here.

Brian

[tunnelrunner]

I was talking to a boatbuilder at our local club day a month or 2 ago and the conversation got around to exotics like kevlar and carbon fibre.

The point that he made was that using exotics in conjunction with 'glass hadn't been the huge success everyone initially thought it would be. The reason he gave was that the materials had such different mechanical characteristics, some of which were not compatible ie tensile and shear strengths etc.All depends upon application I suppose.

His opinion ( as a builder of high-po ocean racing yachts...which have HUGE stresses placed upon them) was that the newer types of resin infusion and vacuum bagged glass hulls, were damned near as strong and a lot more durable.

[tunnelrunner]

as an addendum to the above...

I wonder how many of todays boats are going to be around in 30-40 years..... there might be something in the K.I.S.S. principle there...

[shooter2]

What I can say for certain is the fastest hydros out east here are composites. Seems like if you want to win it is the way to go. But the guys seem to be buying new ones every few years. Good for Bert and Claude as builders.

Brian

[tunnelrunner]

Yeah...good if you are a boat builder I guess...:D:D

The same applies to the ocean racing yachts ....but there has been a HUGE increase in catastrophic failures since composites came in too. Lots of people just put it down to them just trying to build too light... dont know enough to comment.

[shooter2]

From what I have been told the new composite boats are very strong but unlike our glass boats when there is a failure it is catistrophic. Again all second hand info so correct me if I am wrong.

Brian

[TonkaDriver]

Has anyone ever tried a small channel from the strut back to the transom to decrease strut angle?

[FC-Pilot]

Has anyone ever tried a small channel from the strut back to the transom to decrease strut angle?

I have seen that done in a few drag hydros, but that is it. One of them had it filled in the last time I saw it.

Paul

[poncho]

Used to hang with the Champ Boat crowd years ago when the Seebold`s and Lee tunnels ruled.In 1989 or 90 a new carbon tunnel showed up in Portland,Oregan and all my friends that didnt have the coin of (Bowden Development)sp. were shitting themselves thinking in one race their rigs would be obsolete,Bowden`s trailer was lettered in real 24k gold leaf and the letters weren`t small.We all stood on the banks and watched his warmup laps and couldnt believe the acceleration out of the pins i could see tears in my friends eyes.When the race started all eyes were on him and around i think the third or fourth lap i could see the boat visibly slow to the point where he ended up pulling to middle of the course and you could see the boat was sinking,they got a hook on it and made it to shore before going down.That day killed the carbon thinking for years when people realized the boat didnt flex at a buck 30 like the wood builds,from what i remember the boat was built as sections and then assembled and its undoing was the joints the carbon was just too hard.Everyone there knew how much it probably cost to build that thing and i didnt hear one person say lets find out what went wrong and figure out how to make it right.(MONEY)

[lebel409]

I picked up my boat from getting it lettered and striped yesterday.

I brought this subject up with my father in law.

On thing I brought up was twin rudders and/or twin side by side fins.

I'm glad I'm not the only one...:D

A few years ago on HB I asked about new fin designs...crickets.

When I got a new rudder it was a steel carbon copy or the bronze one.

George is right, much easier to throw money at the engine than to make the boat run.

Ideas...just throwing them out...

Weight distribution...

A lot of the addition weight in a boat is added on top (gas tank, raising motor, blower). What could be done to keep the CG lower?

chassis ideas...

Tube frame, guitar style bracing, I beams, composite materriels, incorporate fuel tank into frame.

Stiffness...I think stiffness is desired...if it will hold together. Almost all the rigidity is from the floor/stringers. What about stiffening the sides also?

Layup...anyone ever do anything like two layers of glass in the center of the deck, then three around the perimeter, then a fourth at the edge...save some weight and stiffen the edges...

assymetrical...

For circle boats maybe just put the rudder/fins on the left 1/3...keep the controls in the water?

[RiverRacer]

If it don't work fix it, if it works don't fix it!..........

[gfinishline]

Well, I'm very happy to be part of this little brain trust! So many great and diverse ideas! "Toy", would a stiffer hull/sponson structure allow you to move the prop, for quickness? (<F R>) In the 1970's everything was "lightweight" and tended to FAIL at high speeds. (see TV bloopers and caught on video shows) The flatbottoms were "curling up like a cheap rug". The tube chassis boats "seemed like an answer" to the problem of, Hull bottom shape VS light overall weight. I feel that (like the B boats that have side bulkheads) a normal fiberglass structure can be built, and it will act as a 'single unit", like a "unibody car". Like Indy cars and F1, the "tub/hull" are "one structural unit", and not 'deck on hull' type boats. "Trick materials, and trick processes", only force this sport into the "big bux league". Do we really need that kind of monitary pressure? "Interlocking hull and deck parts" will make the boats stronger, safer, and without adding an unreasonable amout of cost. Did I say lighter, faster, stronger, and affordable?

[poncho]

Someone said it before but i think it bears repeating,as long as there are really good used boats available the market for a new hull is gonna be limited to the dollar boys.If i built a scratch flat today and did it right probably drop 40 large for a decent boat on the other hand a boat like Cole Cash sold for i think $13,000.00 and you get a turn key proven 9 second boat that easily doubles as a lake rod and weekend dragster.Till these boats disappear the market for a new hull will be limited to a select few.IMHO

[Terrible toy]

Well, I'm very happy to be part of this little brain trust! So many great and diverse ideas! "Toy", would a stiffer hull/sponson structure allow you to move the prop, for quickness? (<F R>) In the 1970's everything was "lightweight" and tended to FAIL at high speeds. (see TV bloopers and caught on video shows) The flatbottoms were "curling up like a cheap rug". The tube chassis boats "seemed like an answer" to the problem of, Hull bottom shape VS light overall weight. I feel that (like the B boats that have side bulkheads) a normal fiberglass structure can be built, and it will act as a 'single unit", like a "unibody car". Like Indy cars and F1, the "tub/hull" are "one structural unit", and not 'deck on hull' type boats. "Trick materials, and trick processes", only force this sport into the "big bux league". Do we really need that kind of monitary pressure? "Interlocking hull and deck parts" will make the boats stronger, safer, and without adding an unreasonable amout of cost. Did I say lighter, faster, stronger, and affordable?

Good question, one I don't have an answer for. In our little boat business we were limited by time and money to build what we knew would work. My goal was to improve on existing designs while keeping the cost of the product viable.

Your question about stiff hull/propulsion geometry brought back memories of research I did while designing the hull. I've spent a career working with some of the best scientists and engineers in the country, at the Naval Air Warfare Center here in Ridgecrest. They work at the very leading edge of new technical innovation. It was a no brainer to tap into some of this knowledge. I talked with the program manager of the Advanced Composites Lab and I also asked one of NAWCs leading aerodynamic experts to evaluate our hydro. I made scale drawings of the boat with cross sections every foot for him. He couldn't do it, the formulas and test data he used in designing aircraft and rockets were not powerful enough to evaluate our boat. His explanation was that a boat, especially a hydro, operates in three infinitely changing environments, air, water and ground effect and his programs were not capable of predicting what effect changes in the hull would do. So much for high tech.:rolleyes: He did think that our windshield design was good and would help air get over the driver and at the same time help air flow to the engine.

Funny story about the windshield. It happened at the first race we took the our new boat to. While I was on the holding rope the last guy down drove his hydro around behind all of us to get to the side he was supposed to be on. I didn't know it but the waves he made had put a few gallons of water in my boat. Well, after I went through the traps and lifted the water came forward. The windshield worked well, so well that it had created a vacuum strong enough to lift the water up and into my face mask. Being blind at 160 mph is quite an experience.:eek:

George, I think the monocoque hull idea has merit. An autoclave, vacuum infused, carbon fiber 18 foot boat might weigh 80lbs and be stiffer then blue steel. Be a pricey little bugger though.

As for the stiffness of our hydro, as I said, we decided that the twist of the engine/rear hull was having a positive effect on the right sponson being loaded. Our sponson pads were quite a bit smaller then those on other boats and we were worried about recovery. Now down track a stiff hull is a good thing (who knows what ill effects an engine has flopping back and forth at high speed). But, our idea to design and build a honeycomb stringer/rib structure to stiffen the hull was beyond our energy/bank account levels at the time.

You're dead on with the concern about racing costs. You can look at any motor sport and see the effect evolution of costs have on those without huge financial means. I think NASCAR hires more engineers then NASA now. I know on a personal level I'm thinking of running my little altered in nostalgia races instead of NHRA class racing. I just got the engine back together after a dyno disaster and it's making over 800 hp out of 338 inches. Well two index changes since the dyno thing and it needs to make 900 hp to be a hitter. New heads could get me there but the costs/fun factor lines have crossed for me. Besides I need to save money for the September trip.:D

[Stickman]

Many Boeing aeronautical engineers have run hydroplanes out of the Northwest. They all tried to get their analytical programs to predict the forces on their boats. They all ran into the same problems that your engineer found at the NAWC; too many variables.

[gfinishline]

Yes! Over the decades of powerboating, other engineering disciplines have tried to 'envelope' the waterborn craft into designs from their own data bases. But most quickly learned that "this field" has more basic obstacles than any others that perform below the speed of sound. "Panther Jet Drives" were designed by "NASA EXPERTS", and yet it is less effecent than 'utility water pumps', in our world. Aero engineering experts cannot quantify the performance of the "basic thru water racing propeller" we use today. Yet they know exactly how an airplane propeller reacts in air. I do understand why 'racers' rebuild 30 year old boats/technology and go racing with some success. Todays power/engines have "reasonable prices", with much more output. The problem lies in the boat/rigging/package, and it's overall cost VS performance gains. I feel it all comes down to: "boat companies are in the business of making money, and backyard guys are the ones who will make design progress (money or not)". The single gearbox, twin prop idea has been around for over 30 years, and it took a guy who was safety driven, not money driven, to move it forward. GB Scott Kalitta and family!