Origins of hot boats and other fast things

[AquaCraft]

In another thread, Terrible Toy wrote:

"Ran into Arlen Kurtis, hadn't talked to him in a very long time. Could have spent a day gabbing with him also. He's building midgets and Kurtis roadsters like his dad built in the 40s. I think I'll accept his invite to go over and look them over. I put Arlen up there with a select group who had a giant impact on our beloved sport."

Terrible,

You have mentioned before your interest in the origins of hot boats and other fast things. I also noted your comment about midgets above. One of the surviving early days guys is Ray Moran, born in 1921 and now 86 years old. Over his life time Ray built 1/4 midgets, midgets and numerous ski boats and a cracker from scratch. We are talking building motors and hammering metal or casting 'glass bodies for the midgets. He has some incredible photos of midget racers and their cars from "the day". He competed against guys like Edelbrock and built tractor motors to compete with their Offenhausers. In that day innovation was alive; when the engine rotation of a tractor motor was wrong he took the rearend out, flipped it, flipped the perches and went racing. He would be happy to talk to a racer anytime, you or anyone else can call him at (310) 835-7019, 'tell him Mike sent you. Here are a couple early photos of Ray with his cars. 'Look close in the garage photo and you will also see some two blade props on the wall and water skiis in the rafters. I have to guess guys like this were part of the evolution of hot boats. He still likes to go fast today, he says it makes him "feel like a kid again"...

[Flatmvn]

Very Cool!!!!

[Terrible toy]

Love it Mike, great pictures. I have the greatest admiration for people like Ray. No mail ordered stuff, they had to design and fabricate almost everything from scratch. Looks like he may have served in WWII also.

The pic below is a design for a Naval museum that I did for a group trying to raise money to have it built. I think it would be great to have a museum or a section in an existing museum dedicated to "grass roots" boat builders like Ray. There are lots of museums with car stuff like at Indy or the Peterson and NHRA museums. They are great but are fairly narrow in their scope. I don't know of any museums that have any v drive boat history. Of course, the reality is that museums are off the scale expensive. The group that I did the painting for have been working for 5 years and have only raised about a 1/10 of the 20 million it will take to build stage one of theirs.

OK Mike, since museums are too expensive you go over and talk NHRA into adding a whole big section on the history of v drive boats. I'll design it, we'll all chip in 10 bucks and have Art, Louis, and Paul, who are all handy with tools and live close, build it.:D:D

http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll317/terribletoy/NavymuseumII.jpg

[pwderman]

Mike,great post It took the guy's like Ray to bring us to where we are today.
I was talking to someone the other day about how it was before the internet, Summit and Jegs. Ray was a little before my time (which was the 50's) but Ray and guy's like him blazed a trail and developed the industry we know today.In those day's you didn't pick up the phone or click a mouse to order the parts or anything else you needed. You went out to the garage, carport, backyard or driveway and figured out how to fabricate, beg, borrow or......:eek: to make your ride go faster and look better whether it was a car, boat or motorcycle. Hat's off to Ray and all the others who went before us, as I said before without them we wouldn't be where we're at today....;) :D

[AzDon]

I'm really surprised that Mitch Casale and George Shilala have not joined this thread yet.
George's Dad built Midgets, sprints and Indy race cars at Kurtis and then on his own. Mitch's grandfather built quick-change rear-ends.

[RiverRacer]

I'm really surprised that Mitch Casale and George Shilala have not joined this thread yet.
George's Dad built Midgets, sprints and Indy race cars at Kurtis and then on his own. Mitch's grandfather built quick-change rear-ends.

Give em time they'll be here!..:D

[RiverRacer]

Mike,great post It took the guy's like Ray to bring us to where we are today.
I was talking to someone the other day about how it was before the internet, Summit and Jegs. Ray was a little before my time (which was the 50's) but Ray and guy's like him blazed a trail and developed the industry we know today.In those day's you didn't pick up the phone or click a mouse to order the parts or anything else you needed. You went out to the garage, carport, backyard or driveway and figured out how to fabricate, beg, borrow or......:eek: to make your ride go faster and look better whether it was a car, boat or motorcycle. Hat's off to Ray and all the others who went before us, as I said before without them we wouldn't be where we're at today....;) :D

And in 30 years they'll say the same about us, it just keeps on going with newer technology, but new technology is still developed from back in the day technology!..

[coltmodel70]

this guy was like my grand-father. i remember the first two cars. third pix was about the time i was born. he raced midgets in the 40-50's. being from the east coast i'm sure no one heard of him. Pete Swamer. lots of wins and track champs.




http://www.portroyalspeedway.com/images/Oldies/Pete67.jpg

http://www.portroyalspeedway.com/images/Oldies/Swarmer65.jpg

http://www.portroyalspeedway.com/images/Oldies/Pete1.jpg

[RiverRacer]

Some cool pics there!..:cool:

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/21Pete1.jpg

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/21Pete67.jpg

http://www.hotboatpics.com/pics/data/500/21Swarmer65.jpg

[TonkaDriver]

Check out page 20 of the current issue of Hot Rod. They are actually considering doing some hot rod boat stories because another mag dropped the ball and after all a gearhead is a gearhead. It doesn't matter what the high hp is mounted in.

[gfinishline]

I've been reading, it's all great stuff! I "was born into" open wheel racing, and local boat "guys" were either, customers, or friends of my dad. I didn't know who they were! I did some 1/4 and 3/4 midget racing as a kid, but my mom "put her foot down" and that was that. (days of roll bars and not cages) In high school my friends and I couldn't get enough of DRAG RACE CARS, and we did everything we could to "be a part of it". I've met so many great people/racers growing up, but as a kid I didn't realize who I was talking with. I do see that "professional racing" boats, cars, whatever, has gone so far beyond what "the old guys did' that I feel the fun has been lost. For me it's great to hear about all the old "racing families" that have produced today's "boat maniacs" like US!

[gfinishline]

"F" Hot Rod, as far as boats go. I/We (around here) know a few old friends that got "jerked off" by HR magazine, back in the 80's. Hot Rod had done a few special boat issues, but they USED the people who got those mags up and running. I was offered "3 story pages" if I built , cavitation hardware, controls and "lake tuned" a project boat, for them.(about 2k of work and materials, for a $850 ad) That magazine put pressure on the "guys" (who were friends of mine) and they were forced to put pressure on me, for the project. "Friend to friend" is one thing, but "Friend to friend to the bank" is a totally different story. I like Hot Rod magazine for CARS!

[RiverRacer]

Check out page 20 of the current issue of Hot Rod. They are actually considering doing some hot rod boat stories because another mag dropped the ball and after all a gearhead is a gearhead. It doesn't matter what the high hp is mounted in.

They're talking about good ole puke Hot Boat!..

[RiverRacer]

"F" Hot Rod, as far as boats go. I/We (around here) know a few old friends that got "jerked off" by HR magazine, back in the 80's. Hot Rod had done a few special boat issues, but they USED the people who got those mags up and running. I was offered "3 story pages" if I built , cavitation hardware, controls and "lake tuned" a project boat, for them.(about 2k of work and materials, for a $850 ad) That magazine put pressure on the "guys" (who were friends of mine) and they were forced to put pressure on me, for the project. "Friend to friend" is one thing, but "Friend to friend to the bank" is a totally different story. I like Hot Rod magazine for CARS!

Hey George, you ever hear the term "Friends are friends, but T shirts are $15"!...

[gfinishline]

I sure have! Look, I'll do a "buddy deal" in between MONEY MAKERS! But if I must STOP what I am doing to do YOU a FREEBEE, I question what it all means. Are you having a hard time and I'm actually HELPING MY FRIEND? OR! Are you just lazy and I"m doing the work YOU are liable for? By the way... the shirts actually cost $9.80 (good shirts), with screens and set up charges, $12.00 (cost) each on my order of 144 shirts is a F'n deal. We need to get an internet guy, a T shirt guy, and a boat parts guy around here. Then we all could save money.

[gfinishline]

If pressed, I can get the parts. I'm OEM with most suppliers.

[Terrible toy]

They're talking about good ole puke Hot Boat!..

Hot Boat tanked when Chuck Pierce left as publisher. Drag and circle boats were replaced by triple out drives in 100 foot long what evers.

I should tell the story about the time Chuck, Bob Dice, Mike and Irv Brendel and I all went fishing at Crowley Lake... nope, this is a family site so better not.:D

Don't know if any of you remember Dice, he drove Clive Hughes BAF "My Boat". Crazy as a loon but could he pedal that flatbottom.

[pwderman]

"F" Hot Rod, as far as boats go. I/We (around here) know a few old friends that got "jerked off" by HR magazine, back in the 80's. Hot Rod had done a few special boat issues, but they USED the people who got those mags up and running. I was offered "3 story pages" if I built , cavitation hardware, controls and "lake tuned" a project boat, for them.(about 2k of work and materials, for a $850 ad) That magazine put pressure on the "guys" (who were friends of mine) and they were forced to put pressure on me, for the project. "Friend to friend" is one thing, but "Friend to friend to the bank" is a totally different story. I like Hot Rod magazine for CARS!

George, I worked for B&M (64-65) and we always had the magazine guy's coming around with their hand out. Either wanting to up our advertising for a story or something for their own projects. I did a clutch flite install on a Mustang for one of the editors of Hot Rod at the time in turn they did a big spread on the clutch flite and how it helped the ET. I was doing the install and the guy brings me an aluminum flywheel (from Webber free) I told him it wasn't going to work with the stock 289 but he insisted I use it. Guess what it didn't work. They did the story on the install and how much it helped the ET (they hadn't even been back to the track before the story came out) which was BS because it hurt the ET. I was young, dumb and thought everything I read in the car mags was the truth it sure opened my eyes...:eek: :eek:

[RiverRacer]

George, I worked for B&M (64-65) and we always had the magazine guy's coming around with their hand out. Either wanting to up our advertising for a story or something for their own projects. I did a clutch flite install on a Mustang for one of the editors of Hot Rod at the time in turn they did a big spread on the clutch flite and how it helped the ET. I was doing the install and the guy brings me an aluminum flywheel (from Webber free) I told him it wasn't going to work with the stock 289 but he insisted I use it. Guess what it didn't work. They did the story on the install and how much it helped the ET (they hadn't even been back to the track before the story came out) which was BS because it hurt the ET. I was young, dumb and thought everything I read in the car mags was the truth it sure opened my eyes...:eek: :eek:

Yeah, ain't them magazine articles great, way back I followed one their "low budget" high horsepower motor build ups, I used every part they used and all their specs they listed, a lot of it didn't seem right but what did I know at the time,LOL. Well, I can tell ya that was the biggest POS ever built and what a dud, wiped it out the third time I got on it, and the "budget" yeah right, LOL...:D

[pwderman]

Yeah, ain't them magazine articles great, way back I followed one their "low budget" high horsepower motor build ups, I used every part they used and all their specs they listed, a lot of it didn't seem right but what did I know at the time,LOL. Well, I can tell ya that was the biggest POS ever built and what a dud, wiped it out the third time I got on it, and the "budget" yeah right, LOL...:D

Ya Art we forget sometimes they don't print the newapapers and magazines because their charitable and a lot of times they bend the truth to suit the agenda..:eek: :( :mad:

[RiverRacer]

Ya Art we forget sometimes they don't print the newapapers and magazines because their charitable and a lot of times they bend the truth to suit the agenda..:eek: :( :mad:

For sure!..

[AquaCraft]

In another thread, Terrible Toy wrote:

"Ran into Arlen Kurtis, hadn't talked to him in a very long time. Could have spent a day gabbing with him also. He's building midgets and Kurtis roadsters like his dad built in the 40s. I think I'll accept his invite to go over and look them over. I put Arlen up there with a select group who had a giant impact on our beloved sport."

TT:

I went to Ray's yesterday to mow his weeds and sweep his shop. During bench racing time I asked him if he knew Kurtis "senior". Ray said:

"Oh sure, I went to Fremont High in the late 1930's; Kurtis was building midgets in an old laundramat building across the street from the school. I would go over there after school and watch him work; I remember he always had a cigarette going; his wife told me it was the smoking that took him in the end.

Kurtis only built one or two cars at a time but they were always winners. I built a midget using some Dietz frame rails and bought a nose, hood, and two piece rear from Kurtis. I welded the rear pieces together myself attaching it to the roll bar and cobbled my own floor pan and side panels.

I think Kurtis charged $20 for a nose, $20 for a hood and about $25 for the two piece rear end. He was a fine craftsman and a real artist.

That's the Kurtis bodied car that I am sittin' in there in that photo."

[Terrible toy]

In another thread, Terrible Toy wrote:

"Ran into Arlen Kurtis, hadn't talked to him in a very long time. Could have spent a day gabbing with him also. He's building midgets and Kurtis roadsters like his dad built in the 40s. I think I'll accept his invite to go over and look them over. I put Arlen up there with a select group who had a giant impact on our beloved sport."

TT:

I went to Ray's yesterday to mow his weeds and sweep his shop. During bench racing time I asked him if he knew Kurtis "senior". Ray said:

"Oh sure, I went to Fremont High in the late 1930's; Kurtis was building midgets in an old laundramat building across the street from the school. I would go over there after school and watch him work; I remember he always had a cigarette going; his wife told me it was the smoking that took him in the end.

Kurtis only built one or two cars at a time but they were always winners. I built a midget using some Dietz frame rails and bought a nose, hood, and two piece rear from Kurtis. I welded the rear pieces together myself attaching it to the roll bar and cobbled my own floor pan and side panels.

I think Kurtis charged $20 for a nose, $20 for a hood and about $25 for the two piece rear end. He was a fine craftsman and a real artist.

That's the Kurtis bodied car that I am sittin' in there in that photo."

Mike, I'll copy this post and the pic of Ray in the car. When I go over to check out Arlen's place I'll take them with me. Arlen has a ton of old photos of his Dad's cars and his boats, could be he already has the photo. Thanks and I'll let you know what I find.

[gfinishline]

If you are going to see Arlen, please "say hi" from George Shilala and George Jr (yes my dad is still alive 94) We last saw he and Carol at the last "Gilmore Roars" party, a few years ago. I think later on they built more than "one or two at a time", because my dad worked there. He started as a welder, and soon became a finish frame welder. His frames were straight and passed Magnaflux on the first test, so Frank made him "midget shop foreman". My dad started the frame numbering system, because prior to that no car had a "build number". The numbering wasn't started for the benifit of "todays collectors", it was done to keep track of WHO welded it and how well it was done. When my dad was there, the midget shop had four finish frame welders (including my dad). They also had started an "Indy/Champ car shop". Ask Arlen, of course he was just a kid back then too. PS "$20 for a nose, $20 for a hood........" Remember all those body parts were HAND HAMMERED ALUMINUM, and GAS WELDED! What can you buy for $20 today?

[Terrible toy]

If you are going to see Arlen, please "say hi" from George Shilala and George Jr (yes my dad is still alive 94) We last saw he and Carol at the last "Gilmore Roars" party, a few years ago. I think later on they built more than "one or two at a time", because my dad worked there. He started as a welder, and soon became a finish frame welder. His frames were straight and passed Magnaflux on the first test, so Frank made him "midget shop foreman". My dad started the frame numbering system, because prior to that no car had a "build number". The numbering wasn't started for the benifit of "todays collectors", it was done to keep track of WHO welded it and how well it was done. When my dad was there, the midget shop had four finish frame welders (including my dad). They also had started an "Indy/Champ car shop". Ask Arlen, of course he was just a kid back then too. PS "$20 for a nose, $20 for a hood........" Remember all those body parts were HAND HAMMERED ALUMINUM, and GAS WELDED! What can you buy for $20 today?

George, for sure I'll pass along hello to Arlen and Carol. Very interesting connection between the old midget/champ/sprint world and hot boats. Seems like some of the true craftsman from that era either went into or trained some of the best in the hot boat biz.

Tell your dad that I am in awe of anyone who can gas weld Aluminum, or for that matter any number of things he's produced. I needed a strong, light seat for a dragster and, as you know, gas welds are not as brittle as heliarc welds.
I tried for two days and gave up. My partner Dale finally got it done, but he had learned a lot about welding from Arlen. There's that connection again.

Did you or your Dad have anything to do with the SR-71 starting carts that Arlen, with help from his dad, built for the Airforce? I think they used up most of the nail head Buicks in the country building them things. Sweet contract though, I would guess that Frank's reputation had a lot to do with winning it.

Speaking of building, I'm in the "thinking" stages of converting an 18 ft. Bahner jet I have into a v drive. If you don't mind passing along your phone number I would like to talk to you about parts and specs on the project.

Bill

[gfinishline]

No he didn't, but he did build some "deals' that you may remember. Burbank Triumph wanted a custom built (very light and strong) Bonniville record setting bike. my dad built the chassis and the aluminum body (around 1960) My dad had friends in racing, boats and hot rods, Norm Grabowski comissioned my dad to build 3 frames for his "Corvair bikes". (around 1962) And while he worked for Frank, dad built his own custom car. (at home) It was a different looking deal but it had a US Patent on it's "power hardtop". The car won the Best Engineering Award at the 1952 Autorama (Pan Pacific Auditorium) It was shown on TV show, "City at night" as a feature of the show. The car sat for a month in the showroom of Peterson's Magazines Offices, (it was a cover car in their mags) and then Columbia Studios contacted dad. dad rented the car to them for a "new action TV show" Capitain Midnight" sponsored by Ovalteen. I was just (4 thru 8) when I would go with him to drop off or pick up the car. Had no idea 40 years later I'd be doing work for them myself. Those "APUs' that Arlen did, lasted a LONG time. The Air Force got their money's worth 3 times over on that deal.

[coltmodel70]

George, just found this, if you haven't already:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Other-Vehicles-Trailers_Race-Cars-Not-Street-Legal__Midget-Race-Car-1958-Shilala-one-owner-car_W0QQitemZ140242337035QQddnZOtherQ20VehiclesQ20 Q26Q20TrailersQQadnZRaceQ20CarsQ20Q28NotQ20StreetQ 20LegalQ29QQddiZ2828QQadiZ2792QQcmdZViewItem?hash= item140242337035&

[gfinishline]

Thank you very much! I did look at the offering on Ebay. I have been in contact with Jan Knowlton in the past. My dad tells a little different story, as to this car and it's history. My dad did build this chassis and most of the car. (as pieces) He never designed or built any cars with "bell shaped noses", he didn't like them. He repaired "bell nosed cars (chassis and body work), but never made any with that style of body nose. Barry and his friend "tried" to purchase the (Shilala's Speed Supply) car business from my dad. They ran out of "payment money" after 18 months of "whatever they were doing". My dad had to repo his company and sell it off in pieces. Barry was a friendly guy and knowledgeable enough to assemble this car from parts he had and those he bought from my dad. It has a "Shilala VIN number" (on the chassis), but it was not built by George Shilala Sr. It does look good, but the Volvo motor is not a "plus", in this case. The Barker motor is not worth even looking at. My dad's "Traffic Safety Cone Special" (1964) midget was a no sale (reserve) on Ebay at $38K back a few months ago, I don't know where this car will end up. Thanks for the "heads up!" G