Small Block B-Boat set-up

[canam10]

Paul,
Thanks for sharing. I have a ton more questions so I thought I'd better start another thread. If I'm not mistaken the boat you are now working with is the former K-boat of Bob Bodie's. I have never had or measured a K-boat so I guess my first question is if the strut placement. Is it the same on a K-boat as a SS or any other B-boat? Where was the strut on your boat when you got it? The reason I'm asking this is, Bob had one of the first cells in a v-drive(your boat) and was wondering if the strut placement was changed to compensate for the weight of the cell and the driver being placed so far forward. I figured I would have to change the engine placement in mine(If I should ever decide to try a small block) to keep the same strut weight as with the big block. Which way did you move your engine and how far? What gears are you running and what prop are you trying to turn?
Small blocks have been used in most other hulls for some time now and was wondering what problems or changes if any other people have encountered. I guess thats enough question for one post. Tim

[canam10]

Poncho,
I guess I might just as well move this over here also. Yes I have a Team Biesemeyer boat I raced for many years here on the East Coast. The Starfire I have is a copy. From what I understand It is an exact copy of the Starfire hull however it has the Biesemeyer/D'Cucci T-deck. It is a very pretty boat. It has never had a hole drilled in it. I have now collected all the parts to put it togeather so once I get all these house projects done I hope to get going on it and get it in the water this year. I have the set up Mark gave me from D'Cucci but would like to talk to Stickman a bit before I go start drilling any holes. Not sure if the set I have is for a big block or small block. I may have to talk Buzzz and Paul out the 10* Casale they have sitting around instead of the 10* Hall Craft I have. I also have a 21' Rayson Craft Daycruiser to complete my v-drive collection. I would like to add Kurt's Aqua Craft Shark to the family if I can find anyone coming back east that would tow it home for me. Tim

[Roaddogg 4040]

Tim... We are leaving next Thurs or Fri with the Howard in tow. The offer is still open for the shop if you decide to keep it here. Let me know...

Steve

[Wannabe]

First of all, some info on the bottom of the Bode boat. They had not moved anything in the way of strut placement from the way Paul ran the boat. They probably need to. They actually cut part of the back of the strut off to move the prop further forward, rather than move the strut. They also moved the engine back over the strut and cut the top of the strut to clear the oil pan.
Tim, I know you know most of this, but I will simplify for those who may be reading along. The basic idea of strut placement as I am getting from stealing measurements off of the really fast boats, and speaking with people that don't mind sharing the super secret information. The superstock and lighter horsepower pro stock boats like the strut around 21" from the back of the transom with a 7" plate. (Generalization to save some of the fast boats secrets.) If you don't have the big horsepower, but have the torque, you can move the strut back a little. 1" or so. If you do not have the torque to get the nose out of the water, you send the strut up underneath the boat to get more lift as the torque cannot do it. Bubba told us 4" further under. We used his idea, but not his measurements. We went about half of that from the fastest SS boat out there. Our strut is 23.75" from the back of the transom with just under 7" plates. (The longer the plates, the further underneath the boat the strut acts.) We were told to keep the strut away from the boat enough to run a 12.25" diameter prop. (It makes it by about five sheets of paper.) But the strut angle is 7.45 degrees. Bubba also stated that when you move the strut, you want to move the turn fins the same amount. So we did. I will tell you I am glad we went half of what he stated, because with the K prop, the boat had no problems getting the nose out of the water. And that is a small pump gas 338 cubic inch deal. It took a fair amount of left leg to keep it in the water. The rear of the engine is exactly where the fastest super stocks are. The motorplate almost touches the front of the strut. maybe 1/8" away. I don't know the exact measurements of the K prop used, but something like 11 1/2 - 16. I will measure tonight. 12 percent overdrive gears in the box and the engine spun 6100 rpm.
Now we get to the mess of it all. As your torque increases the strut is slowly moving back. But then you get to the blown K boats with cubic inches and the boats try to blow the tail out of the water when they stomp on the loud pedal. So when you get to K boats, the more torque, the further you stuff the strut underneath the boat. I know; it doesn't make sense. But that is the way it is. So our little small block boat would make a great small block boat, or a good K boat. But would send the nose to the air with a decent torque big block. Some guys are trying ULTRA small big blocks in the K class to get the horsepower but not the torque so they act more like a pro stock boat and less like a K with the tail trying to blow out of the water. They seem to work really well. Another way people adjust the K boats without having to move the strut is to make longer plates to trick the boat into thinking the strut is further underneath.
I do know of a few other E boat Biesemeyers and other B boats from the day. They seem to be fairly similar to ours. (Of course we find this out after we set ours up.) They were lighter lay-ups but seemed to hold together for decades, even when they were switched over to superstocks.
Feel free to e-mail directly about exact measurements of our boat, and the dance you will have to do to get a v-drive from our shop.

[poncho]

Tim,had a small v-drive years ago for a short time more than once i was told it was a Jones Javelin copy,the paperwork said homebuilt so no idea who did it,the build quality was very good but it was a very spooky boat at the top end it kept taking rudder as the speed increased then if you let off you got it all back at once,damn boat never seemed to do the same thing twice i was too young and no experts to help me figure it out like we have now,went down the road without power.Had a guy walk up to me on a beach once and tell me it was a Jones copy everyone that had owned it had given up on it and a few where hurt he seemed to know the boat well,seems there was a gentleman in youre neck of the woods that had a real nice Stevens a few years back was that you?thanks

[RiverRacer]

Poncho,
I guess I might just as well move this over here also. Yes I have a Team Biesemeyer boat I raced for many years here on the East Coast. The Starfire I have is a copy. From what I understand It is an exact copy of the Starfire hull however it has the Biesemeyer/D'Cucci T-deck. It is a very pretty boat. It has never had a hole drilled in it. I have now collected all the parts to put it togeather so once I get all these house projects done I hope to get going on it and get it in the water this year. I have the set up Mark gave me from D'Cucci but would like to talk to Stickman a bit before I go start drilling any holes. Not sure if the set I have is for a big block or small block. I may have to talk Buzzz and Paul out the 10* Casale they have sitting around instead of the 10* Hall Craft I have. I also have a 21' Rayson Craft Daycruiser to complete my v-drive collection. I would like to add Kurt's Aqua Craft Shark to the family if I can find anyone coming back east that would tow it home for me. Tim

Tim, you need to talk to Steve McElroy for measurements on the Jones, he has a genuine with a small block and it hauls the mail and it "handles"!.... Art..

[RiverRacer]

First of all, some info on the bottom of the Bode boat. They had not moved anything in the way of strut placement from the way Paul ran the boat. They probably need to. They actually cut part of the back of the strut off to move the prop further forward, rather than move the strut. They also moved the engine back over the strut and cut the top of the strut to clear the oil pan.
Tim, I know you know most of this, but I will simplify for those who may be reading along. The basic idea of strut placement as I am getting from stealing measurements off of the really fast boats, and speaking with people that don't mind sharing the super secret information. The superstock and lighter horsepower pro stock boats like the strut around 21" from the back of the transom with a 7" plate. (Generalization to save some of the fast boats secrets.) If you don't have the big horsepower, but have the torque, you can move the strut back a little. 1" or so. If you do not have the torque to get the nose out of the water, you send the strut up underneath the boat to get more lift as the torque cannot do it. Bubba told us 4" further under. We used his idea, but not his measurements. We went about half of that from the fastest SS boat out there. Our strut is 23.75" from the back of the transom with just under 7" plates. (The longer the plates, the further underneath the boat the strut acts.) We were told to keep the strut away from the boat enough to run a 12.25" diameter prop. (It makes it by about five sheets of paper.) But the strut angle is 7.45 degrees. Bubba also stated that when you move the strut, you want to move the turn fins the same amount. So we did. I will tell you I am glad we went half of what he stated, because with the K prop, the boat had no problems getting the nose out of the water. And that is a small pump gas 338 cubic inch deal. It took a fair amount of left leg to keep it in the water. The rear of the engine is exactly where the fastest super stocks are. The motorplate almost touches the front of the strut. maybe 1/8" away. I don't know the exact measurements of the K prop used, but something like 11 1/2 - 16. I will measure tonight. 12 percent overdrive gears in the box and the engine spun 6100 rpm.
Now we get to the mess of it all. As your torque increases the strut is slowly moving back. But then you get to the blown K boats with cubic inches and the boats try to blow the tail out of the water when they stomp on the loud pedal. So when you get to K boats, the more torque, the further you stuff the strut underneath the boat. I know; it doesn't make sense. But that is the way it is. So our little small block boat would make a great small block boat, or a good K boat. But would send the nose to the air with a decent torque big block. Some guys are trying ULTRA small big blocks in the K class to get the horsepower but not the torque so they act more like a pro stock boat and less like a K with the tail trying to blow out of the water. They seem to work really well. Another way people adjust the K boats without having to move the strut is to make longer plates to trick the boat into thinking the strut is further underneath.
I do know of a few other E boat Biesemeyers and other B boats from the day. They seem to be fairly similar to ours. (Of course we find this out after we set ours up.) They were lighter lay-ups but seemed to hold together for decades, even when they were switched over to superstocks.
Feel free to e-mail directly about exact measurements of our boat, and the dance you will have to do to get a v-drive from our shop.

WOW, I'm speechless!..:eek::D

[FC-Pilot]

The two props that we have tried had diameters of 11" and 11 3/8". By no means are they the biggest wheels but they are not insanely small either. We are planning on going back out and doing some testing the end of this week. It should be fun as we are going to go out with our friends with their K-boat. It will be the first time their boat has touched the water so it will be neat.

Tim, one of the things that will also take some time is the grooming of the drivers.:eek::D This is our first time running a circle boat so it will take a while for us as drivers to really know how to feel what all is going on. It may take us a few more outings to feel comfortable hanging it out like the boat wants to be. Not only that, but we still need to do some more tuning on the engine to squeeze more power out of it. That will also make a difference.

Paul

[Wannabe]

WOW, I'm speechless!..:eek::D

Speechless in a good way, or a bad way?

[RiverRacer]

Speechless in a good way, or a bad way?

Hmmmm, didn't know there was two ways!..:confused:

[Wannabe]

Maybe I should just go back to attempting to make boats that everyone says will never work and just keep my mouth shut. Less peanuts in the shop that way.

[canam10]

Speechless in a good way, or a bad way?

Man Guys,
It can be ONLY be in a GOOD way. It hurts my head just thinking about all that. You sure have been doing your homework and by the sounds of it your on the right track. Glad I was only the driver!!! I guess my crew was right.
Next question. My thinking has been only in terms of actually racing the boat on a mile or a mile and a quarter course. Is that what your are trying to set the boat up for or are you looking more for top speed ? Keep up the good work and keep me posted on the progress. Will be looking forward to the results of the next ride. Tim

[canam10]

Tim, you need to talk to Steve McElroy for measurements on the Jones, he has a genuine with a small block and it hauls the mail and it "handles"!.... Art..

Art,
The parts came today they look great. They should work just fine. Would you have a contact number or e-mail for Steve ?

[canam10]

Tim,had a small v-drive years ago for a short time more than once i was told it was a Jones Javelin copy,the paperwork said homebuilt so no idea who did it,the build quality was very good but it was a very spooky boat at the top end it kept taking rudder as the speed increased then if you let off you got it all back at once,damn boat never seemed to do the same thing twice i was too young and no experts to help me figure it out like we have now,went down the road without power.Had a guy walk up to me on a beach once and tell me it was a Jones copy everyone that had owned it had given up on it and a few where hurt he seemed to know the boat well,seems there was a gentleman in youre neck of the woods that had a real nice Stevens a few years back was that you?thanks

Poncho,
I seen a Javelin once and was told the same thing. It sure did look like a Starfire. Never seen it run though. It sure depends on the plug they took the mold from and how good of a job they did building the mold. If either are not perfect it sure can make for a bad handeling boat. Don't ever recall a Stevens around here but there may have been one for sale in Rochester,N.Y. I'm on and Island in the Niagara River between Buffalo and Niagara Falls.

[Wannabe]

This baby is supposed to be set up for the short course. Could run in the straights, but more of a quick turning single pin boat. No kilo boat here.
Come on by and drive it any time you want.

[shooter2]

This baby is supposed to be set up for the short course. Could run in the straights, but more of a quick turning single pin boat. No kilo boat here.
Come on by and drive it any time you want.

Ok what time should I be there? Have jacket and helmet, will travel. LOL

Brian

[canam10]

This baby is supposed to be set up for the short course. Could run in the straights, but more of a quick turning single pin boat. No kilo boat here.
Come on by and drive it any time you want.

Thanks,
That sounds great would love to take you up on your offer but it probably won't be this weekend !!

[Norseman]

Paul, Buzzz

Did you Dyno the motor???

What's the HP and Tq, or if it never went on the dyno, what's your estimate?

It'd be intersting to compare your numbers for the SBC to the typical SS engine.

Tim any idea what your engine did for HP and Tq?

Bob

[Stickman]

Javelins were made by Al Lapoint who has Security Race Products now. The 15' mold was originally made by Steve Jones but he sold the molds to Al to get ERR going in the early 70's in the Northwest. They were good to about 85mph average but got very wild with too much horsepower.

[poncho]

Stickman youre dead on small world had the boat when i lived in Seattle,so thats the backstory huh!I know Mr. Lapointe from my outboard circle days and he was hawking Security Race Products at all the races,do you know Larry Swinford by chance?BTW didn`t Steve Jones go on to be a bigshot with the APBA?Yes youre right the boat on the top end never felt right

[poncho]

Maybe I should just go back to attempting to make boats that everyone says will never work and just keep my mouth shut. Less peanuts in the shop that way.

Thats kinda funny in my twisted world

[RiverRacer]

Thats kinda funny in my twisted world

LMAO!..:D:D:D

[RiverRacer]

Art,
The parts came today they look great. They should work just fine. Would you have a contact number or e-mail for Steve ?

Glad you like them Tim, just so you'd know the marks on the welds are the places that need attention!.... Check your PM's for a number!...